Yes dapoon is do agree with the situation going on in India. I have spoken to my friends who are currently working in other countries with a good reputed studio . They are enjoying their work and are decently paid which seems like a  fair balance . More importantly these guys are getting better day by day as they are exposed to some of the best artists and directors and working on a great projects. So there is a consistent learning curve and their work has tremendously grown to a large extent. The studio environment is filled with creative energy all the time over there which makes an artist not to loose his/her focus. In India the biggest problem is we don't get to work on great stuff. Its not that we are not talented, India has a wide range of talent which is never utilized , So the artists never grow and they are pretty much stuck at the same level. Worst part we keep watching all the good stuff happening around the world every day and the disappointment  sinks in . So its not just about career vs survival. In india it is career vs survival vs creative growth. Now how do we change this scenario  remains a big question . Only way is to change the whole system...

Great topic!

I think the biggest issue lies with the word "survival." That's an extremely loose term, which everyone has different definitions for. For example, the cheap young talent is surviving, is it not? On the inexpensive pay they get? That means the wage being given is enough to survive. Is it enough to flourish? Probably not. Hence why the whole idea of "surviving" is a difficult one to throw into the discussion. To survive you need very, very little.

So you have to weigh passion with desired life-style. I can only speak for myself, since that's my experience, but I can tell you that if I wasn't out to start my own studio, I would go work at Disney for essentially enough to SURVIVE. Enough to get a roof over my head, and enough food to live. Because for me, the passion is vastly greater than any money they could throw at me. They want me as a supervising animator of one of their films? My question would be "where do I sign" not "how much does it pay." They could pay me less than an entry level inbetweener and I'd do it. Because of the intangibles. The fact that forever and ever until the end of our species, people would see and (hopefully) derive joy from that work. It would last through the ages, and long after I'm gone. That to me is worth way more than a lifestyle.

So yeah, it's tricky. How do you manage to get a studio on the same page as what you consider "fair" when there are people willing to do the job for much less? In my opinion you make yourself irreplaceable. You give the studio something they CAN'T get from younger animators, or even just animators who will work for less. And you find the right studio. Don't work for one that doesn't value you. I know that's tough, when you're trying to survive, but this is you LIFE, and life is about more than just survival. You can thrive in ways that have nothing to do with having a bigger house or a new car. But the only way to do that is to change your own perspective, and that's monstrously difficult since society has crammed into us that we need to have nicer STUFF instead of better relationships or true joy.

Kind of a rambling way to go about saying it's more important to have joy than happiness. You can be happy when you remodel your kitchen or buy a new TV. It's unlikely, though, that those things will bring you joy. Joy can be found by sitting in a TV-less room with friends and talking, or teaming up with other animators to create the next Toy Story. For me at least, I'd rather be joyful than happy. Because with joy comes happiness, and even when it doesn't you can fall back on the true joy in the end.

It's in our hands, though. We're the workers, we decide what's important. If the important thing is doing great works, we sacrifice the paycheck sometimes to do them. If the important thing is having the lifestyle we want, then we do what we have to in order to get that lifestyle, even if it means giving up some of the great works.

And if you want it all, you almost always have to strike out on your own and make it happen. That's my own goal. I want to create amazing 2D works, and right now it's hard to find studios that want to make that happen. I'm going to try to make a studio like that, which will focus on quality like we used to have. There are enough Little Mermaid 4: Ariel's Grandaughter's Pet Goldfish movies out there, and not nearly enough The Lion Kings. But we can change all that. It's going to be crazy hard, but we CAN do it. It's up to us if we want to live by the rules other people set, or set our own rules. We can accept "the way it is" out there in the animation industry, or we can say "No, I want it to be BETTER" and make it happen!

My opinion, anyway.

In any case I don't think the younger less experienced animators are killing the market. Even 10 junior level animators aren't the equivalent of one senior animator. Every project needs junior, mid and senior animators. (Keith Lango wrote an interesting post on the subject)

I think the most important is to determine your value within the company and that the company pays you accordingly.

But I think it's dangerous to go down the path of "animation is your passion so you don't need to be paid much for it". Money is not only used to fill your home with useless things, it's used for travelling, putting your kids to school, curing health issues and get you through times when you don't have a contract (happens very often in our line of work). So basically for me the most important is to determine what your worth and be paid accordingly (and if it's a small studio that doesn't have much budget to develop the project than royalties can be put in the equation).

Last edited by Toutouffe (03-31-2011 4:13 pm)

Great range of thoughts guys! Thanks for the response.

My main focus of the discussion is on this silly plan the fresh graduates make: "Lemme just do work for less money now. Once I get the experience, I'mma move up the ladder". Problem is, they don't realize that they are destroying the very ladder they are talking about. Only a few manage to make it up there.

It sounds selfish and greedy to think about money in the early days (rather than focusing on good work), but practically speaking, if we stand up for our rightful pay and stick to it, a lot of things fall in place in the bigger picture. ONE fresher willing to work for ridiculously low wages can jeopardize the whole system.

Like Toutoueffe rightly said, "Money is not only used to fill your home with useless things, it's used for travelling, putting your kids to school, curing health issues and get you through times when you don't have a contract (happens very often in our line of work)".

JKR, I really agree with you on some levels. I too want a life based on simple joys (heck I wouldn't mind being a bachelor who stays in a quiet valley, lives on fruits, listens to Ennio Morricone, and animates on kickass projects even if for some meager measly bucks... and I could do that forever), but sigh! That's not to be! So yes, like you rightly said, it's not about career vs survival, it's more of career vs comfortable living (which is really survival in today's times). Do you want an animation career (i.e. joy) or a comfortable life (i.e. happiness)?
I love the fact that you are braving into opening your own studio, I too would love to do that some day, but until that day comes, I can't help feeling the need to have enough experience before opening my own studio, and I can't really "survive" on those measly bucks while collecting experience. But that's just me.

Vinay, I so agree with you man! The situation in India is quite pathetic. There is hardly any creative growth in terms of our own content, and even if there is, it is pretty much suppressed by politics. All that we can think of, when we make our own content, are movies on Gods or Dogs. We do have talented people. I wonder why people like Vaibhav Kumaresh don't make a full fledged Indian animated movie!!

Staker, As far as outsourcing to India is concerned, I'm honestly sick and tired of it too. Don't wanna get all patriotic here (I do love my country), but frankly, while it ensures jobs for Indian animators, but in the long run, I feel it could be limiting our options. This thread's topic applies on that bigger level too. Our studios offer themselves cheap and bag the projects from other countries. What we don't realize is we too are killing our own market, both on the international level and the national level. We hardly have any of our own good films to talk about, and we rely on outsourced work. I fear if tomorrow we don't get any outsourced work, we won't have anything of our own to fall back on. Even if that won't be the case, I would still very much like us to do our own content, and good ones at that (not pathetic excuses like "Roadside Romeo" - no offense to the animators who worked on it, but there's no denying that the story, storytelling was redundant at best). In fact there IS a movie called Arjun that is actually good. Why they won't release it even 2 years after completion, is because of internal politics. It's really a sad state here! Check it out here if you would like to. (The characters look quite anime though!! )

Toutoueffe, I really wish we too had the same wages convention here. Here animation is not even an industry yet so that the Govt may take us seriously. We're still "something" that makes kiddie stuff. Doh! And yes I too had read Keith Lango's wonderful insight on the workings of a production. That gives me a relief that the ladder still exists. But how many studios are there that efficiently work like that? In India, we're still much further behind. We need to have good content before we too can dream of having such a set up and make full fledged GOOD animated movies. Oh anyway chuck it, the problems in India are never ending. I oughta make this thread more general than India-centered!

tashtego_jwm, " the massive corporatization of hollywood is a big part of it" is pretty much correct. But I think Disney does pay their artists (fresh or veteran) well. That's why I said that you can get your value's worth only in such studios. I dunno if I made any sense. Someone from Disney (or any big studio) could perhaps shed some light on this?

Last edited by Dapoon (05-06-2012 4:27 am)

dapOOn wrote:

JKR, I really agree with you on some levels. I too want a life based on simple joys (heck I wouldn't mind being a bachelor who stays in a quiet valley, lives on fruits, listens to Ennio Morricone, and animates on kickass projects even if for some meager measly bucks... and I could do that forever), but sigh! That's not to be! So yes, like you rightly said, it's not about career vs survival, it's more of career vs comfortable living (which is really survival in today's times). Do you want an animation career (i.e. joy) or a comfortable life (i.e. happiness)?
I love the fact that you are braving into opening your own studio, I too would love to do that some day, but until that day comes, I can't help feeling the need to have enough experience before opening my own studio, and I can't really "survive" on those measly bucks while collecting experience. But that's just me.

Those are some great points, eloquently worded, my friend! You've given me more to think about. Thanks.

Perhaps I need to step back and remember that while money isn't everything, it isn't nothing either. Sometimes I tend to get a little... extreme in my thinking. It's tough for me not to see things in black and white instead of shades of gray, but the world is never quite as clear cut as I'd love it to be (for simplicities sake!). Sometimes I get wrapped up in the age old Animation Adage: Keep It Simple! I try to oversimplify everything as a result.

Off to sit and ponder, now that my animation for March is done!

I keep reading this thread and the image of Bear Grylls keeps going through my head.

"Good day, I'm Bear Grylls, an' today were gonna learn 'ow to survive in the studio."  leaps over animation desk grabs a needed eraser "look at this, in the tradition of the old traditional animators, they would eat this in order to survive in harsh time under the reign of a ruthless producer.  The key thing is to bite the head first so it wont wiggle"
Takes bite of eraser "Uggghh!!! it tastes like dirt! Ugh, I can feel it wiggling its way down.  It may be harsh, but its protein, and protein means survival."
Que music BUM-DA BA-BUM BUM BUM!!! "oooooeeeeoooooooaaaaahhhhh!!!"

All joking aside,

You know this is the industry you are getting in, people need to understand that majority of people out there may not have jobs or even clean water to drink.  Count the blessings that you do have and be thankful that any of you have jobs in the industry and are able to chose the career path that you want.  Most people I know of didn't get a choice.

I don't want to sound mean or apathetic, but look at your situation from a positive viewpoint.  Don't fall into the trap that glass is half-empty or you will never be satisfied.  Besides, I find I can never create art and animation on my own when I'm in a bitter mood.

Last edited by PeterJCasey (04-02-2011 5:25 pm)

PeterJCasey wrote:

You know this is the industry you are getting in, people need to understand that majority of people out there may not have jobs or even clean water to drink.  Count the blessings that you do have and be thankful that any of you have jobs in the industry and are able to chose the career path that you want.  Most people I know of didn't get a choice.

I don't want to sound mean or apathetic, but look at your situation from a positive viewpoint.  Don't fall into the trap that glass is half-empty or you will never be satisfied.  Besides, I find I can never create art and animation on my own when I'm in a bitter mood.

Thanks for this Peter! Loved the Bear Grylls example! I'm always the glass half full type. There's a definite difference between Mr. Optimist and Mr. Happy-go-lucky. The former counts his blessings, but is still aware of the problems, discusses/works out solutions, secures his future as much as possible and then hopes for the best. The latter simply counts his blessings, and quite blindly hopes for the best.

I'm also aware that I'm extremely fortunate to be a part of a field of my dreams. And like I mentioned, I wouldn't mind animating day in and day out just for the love of it, but the reality is far different. With time, responsibilities increase, and you can't be Mr. Happy-go-lucky any more. A senior animator once told me, "Work as hard as you can while you're young and single, because once you get married, money is gonna be so important, it's crazy". And that's what I wanna do: work as hard as possible and secure my future.

I'm hardly in a bitter mood. In fact, I've been on bed rest (owing to a road accident) for almost 17 months.. and I wonder how many more months to go. Not once have I felt down that my career is over. What kept me up and going? ANIMATION!! And now I managed to get a job via freelance.

Last edited by dapOOn (04-02-2011 7:10 pm)

nice topic dapoon ..i agree with almost everybody but one thing is there , i don't
know about other countries but yeah in INDIA they have made animation industry a
mere BUSINESS UNIT, they just think of earning money.They don't even  treat artist
like artist but labourers

you will find lots n lots of animation schools on every street corner. they don't
even teach them properly and mint lot of money , and after so much of struggle artist who are really passionate they come to picture and as lot of artist are pouring in and  as we all know this industry itself is very small so where all
these artist will go..

after waiting for so much time (or years) when freshers get job they can not resist
themselves of taking job even if salary is very less. because they are so passionate
about it they need a start for their career.
They  want to improve and yeah not to mention SURVIVE. first of all lot of parents
do not understand about this feild they just see that we have done course, spent lot
of money and time and  we are sitting UNEMPLOYED.

so freshers have to get agree with the terms and conditions of the company, if we
wont others are there to replace them may be out neccesity n all .
freshers have to launch them at lower prices.. its like how a company launch their
first product at lower price to win trust and good will in the market. once they
gain they increase the price..

and how it feels being umemployed specially when your family is dependent on
you,when you really want to something for your loved ones doesnt need explanation i
guess..

animation is our passion not our famliy's. so we cant be so selfish..

just my point of veiw anyway..

Last edited by eku01987 (04-05-2011 2:56 pm)

Cheap talent is equals to  c r a p  work!!!

Last edited by animatress (04-12-2011 2:43 pm)

The Animation Guild Blog recently had some relevant commentary on why animators' pay is not closely following the rising box office results of animated features.

http://animationguildblog.blogspot.com/ … uring.html

As I said supply and demand but let’s toss in another X factor.

10-15 years ago the art of actually animating a living breathing mass of mesh was technically a difficult process requiring both right and left brain thinking. Not only did you have to know how to use the brush but also you had to know how to make the paint.

Today software makes the job a lot easier and is only getting better not to mention the technical requirements are now being handled through specialization so the animator is doing far less work than they use to.

Soooooooo

It’s not motion capture that animators should fear that will replace their skills but the very tools they use that will allow them to do three times the work in half the time.

Frankie V wrote:

Today software makes the job a lot easier and is only getting better not to mention the technical requirements are now being handled through specialization so the animator is doing far less work than they use to.

My argument against that would be that the budgets don't seem to be getting any smaller due to technology.  And if you compare the credits the crews don't seem to be any smaller. 

It's hard to pinpoint what got easier when it's still taking as many people to get a movie done.

And if animators are working 90 hour weeks now, it's hard to imagine that that is a reduction.

Crazy business.