I don't think this would be a problem. You still need to animate, regardless of the program you're using

Doesn't source filmmaker use the ingame animations? And then you can tweak/animate on top of them? If that's the case, then someone else (at Valve) animated those source animations, so it wouldn't be a completely original animation

Unless I'm misunderstanding how Source Filmmaker works

You can puppeteer rigs in real-time with your mouse (smooth the movement applied with filters), animate using built-in graph editor (you need to get used to it), or use a plugin to animate character rigs (SDK includes all characters without facial controls) in Maya and export/import your animation into SFM. You will need to animate the face separately in SFM when you import your animations.

I am definitely going to use SFM for this competition

Last edited by gtvdave (07-24-2012 3:05 pm)

the problem is, i think, that you can't really tell these apart.
But I really think to make it look so good that you can actually win one of the top 3 places (as there are only prices for the those places, I deem the others irrelevant in this discussion), you still need to put a lot of work into it, regardless if you built it on the animation by Valve or not, don't you think?
And even if not, what good would it bring you to get a critique on premade animation?

Edit: DISCLAIMER: Although I have 'Moderator' written beneath my name, this is just my personal opinion and not the official one by the 11second club owners! I could very well be wrong, too

Last edited by wolfor (07-24-2012 4:52 pm)

robcat2075 wrote:

Is it like "clip art" for animation?

Not exactly. It's what valve uses for the cinematics and they use the in game graphics engine and environments as a sort of film stage. Since the software they released to the public is centered around the team fortress game it's possible to use the in-game animations in your cinematics but for your cinematics to look professional they don't suffice. You have to pose and animate the characters yourself.

That being said I doubt the program would be allowed on 11 second club because they have a sort of auto lip sync feature that'll match phonemes with audio clips, not to mention the potential use of in-game animations (though I believe it's possible to use non-team fortress characters and environments in the program).

Here's valves official "Meet the Pryo" (if you haven't seen it) video that was created using the source filmaker engine. You're not going to get this quality using only in game animations.

Direct Link

Last edited by Juniversal (07-28-2012 9:58 pm)

robcat2075 wrote:

There's no rule against auto lip synch and the chances that existing animation from a game would be a suitable performance for another dialog is next to zero.

I'm still not sure I get the point of this.  What was stopping them from using their game assets in cinematics before?

We're on the same page about the in game animation but I was under the impression the animation was supposed to be ALL yours. I'm pretty new to the site so maybe I was under the wrong impression.

And just fyi, they've been using the source filmmaker engine for ALL the Team fortress videos (and their other game releases). Meet the Pyro is just their most recent release. Here's a video explaining the engine:

Direct Link

Last edited by Juniversal (07-29-2012 9:31 pm)

When you use someone else rig...its still a blank canvas...there's no animation on that character...it isn't moving...its a static character in a T pose. Its up to the animator to create the animation. This is not the case with SF, you use all of Valves previously created animation & then add animation on top of it (like Maya's animation layers) Now it does also allow you to create fully original animations and I'm all for people using it to do that, but I feel if you are using someone elses animations and adding a layer of your own stuff on top of it...thats not fair. That would be like me acquiring a file of Woody animation from Pixar and adding a layer on top of it and changing some of the head turns/gestures and then calling it my own.

regardless of whether a rig is a blank canvas or not...what we are talking about here is animation...and animation on a blank rig is 100% your animation...I create all of it. SF is not that way...someone else has already created the animation & you're tweaking it/adding on top of it.

robcat2075 wrote:

I figure the only way you could make it ALL yours would be to draw it and, of course, that's not happening.

Once you start using someone else's rigged character of their design with their controls and maybe even included presets for various mouth shapes and expressions... it's not really all the animator's work anyway.

But I'm so doubtful that an automated lip synch tool would be enough to get an otherwise lame animator over the goal line that it doesn't seem like a problem issue to me.

I think you're missing the point. The point isn't that using the bundled animations and lip sync feature will result in pixar quality animation nor am I implying that talent or skill isn't required to get a good result. It certainly is (proven by valves "Meet the..." videos) or alternatively the shoddy work by amateur animators using the source filmmaker. What i'm saying is that using an auto lip sync and pre-made animations/poses in the 11 second club competition is like using a performance enhancing drug. It gives the user a unfair advantage compared to the competition that doesn't have it. Mind i'm speaking strictly for this competition.

Also there's a distinct difference between animating/animation, and a "rig" made for animating. Having mouth shapes doesn't give an unfair advantage considering you STILL have to animate the mouth to match the words, not to mention most rigs used in 11SC have mouth shapes.

I would be very curious to see someone use this thing and see what comes out of it.  Maybe I just don't get it, but I don't see how this changes the animator's task that much. 

A different render engine? different characters?

WHAT am i missing?

It makes the process easier i.e. bypasses important challenges involved in creating your animation. Maybe you're right in that it wouldn't impart a big enough advantage to remove it as a viable software but i'm doubtful. Regardless I would love to see someone with skill (besides valve animators) use it because it's a powerful tool. Maybe a little too flexible for the 11Sec club competitions though.

wolfor wrote:

an entry that looks like a wedding dress dragged through horse manure and then left to dry on a toxic waste disposal dump

I bet that was one word in the original Deutsch.

Ein giftmüllentsorgungdumpgetrocknetenpferdemistgeschlepptehochzeitskleidische Eintrag

If that isn't the correct German... it ought to be!

Last edited by robcat2075 (07-31-2012 5:48 am)

Having just sifted through a whole bunch of this month's entries, I'm now of the opinion that a good significant portion of entrants cannot animate a decent walk cycle yet. The animations that Valve included might be basic, but even a basic walk is going to be a performance enhancer for a person who should still be perfecting their ball bounce. Hell, an idle standing moving hold would be a performance enhancer too.

I'm of the opinion that this software shouldn't really be allowed in the contest. Whether it gives you enough of an edge to win or not is irrelevant. Does it matter if an athlete takes only a small dose of steroids or if he breathes the stuff?