Some what off-track thought, but i was thinking about the numbers involved...

Is there any other entertainment industry that could get by with releasing so little product? 

There are only about eight animated features released each year in the US.

Could the book industry get by on publishing eight books? Could the NBA get by on an eight-game season? Could the music biz get by on eight albums?  What if there were only eight television programs?  What if the Internet had eight websites? Even Broadway, which operates solely in the island of Manhattan produces more than eight plays in a year. 

I'm not sure what that all means but somehow the numbers associated with animation seem to be in another dimension compared to any other venture.

Dapoon wrote:

This is what's going on in India as we speak. The 8th , 9th and 10th paras sum up everything.

This article sounds even worse that I imagined it would be.

Actually, this is something I was always wondering about. How does a country with one of the longest and richest cultures in storytelling in all the world, harboring over 15% of the worlds population (I think a very good sized market), have it's enormous animation industry to get stuck doing outsourcing labor for cultures that are totally different from their own, (and, whats worse, seem to have lost all their ingenuity) instead of taking from their own wealth of stories and create films of their own?
But, opposed to that, they're only trying to copy the sucked dry western story concepts from the very companies that are now exploiting India's cheap labor force in order to make up for receding ticket sales?

I sincerely hope I'm just wrong because of not seeing the whole picture.

Alternate thought...

Isn't saying "India should have a vibrant, original-content animated film industry" just another way of saying "India should be more like America"?

Why should it? Why is that American-style thing so crucial to India's aspirations? Why not pursue something else entirely different?

I don't know what that entirely different thing would be.  That would be something for Indians to decide.

robcat2075 wrote:

Perhaps it's been around so long that it is static and a story derived from it will not be new or interesting to the people who have been telling it for 5000 years.

I don't think so. The few traditional Indian stories I've heard seem very fresh and far more interesting than the old-and-boring boymeetsgirl carp that Hollywood tries to sell "just because it's working"

robcat2075 wrote:

Alternate thought...

Isn't saying "India should have a vibrant, original-content animated film industry" just another way of saying "India should be more like America"?

Why should it? Why is that American-style thing so crucial to India's aspirations? Why not pursue something else entirely different?

While I agree that the Indian Film Industry should rather try to produce their genuinely own stuff instead of trying to copy Hollywood (see my post above), I really don't think that "a vibrant, original-content animated film industry" is any synonym for America's film industry. Maybe it was, now over half a century ago.

@Dapoon, I am really glad there are films in India that do not try to copy western style (and probably also pay better).
I think this is not only better for the Indian Animators, who would then work on films that they can relate to (and probably get better payed), but also for us westerners who don't loose our jobs because all of 'our' films are being produced in India. So maybe it's even good if the quality of those outsourcing factories is generally declining. Nobody need them anyways, and this might make our companies bring their work back to where it belongs. I hope this doesn't sound too bad

Quantity is not quality. Commercially successful does not necessarily mean it's good.
Although the most successful, Disney was never the 'only' player on the field. And storytelling quality has severely decreased since then.

If today's productions do good financially, it's just because of a lack of more entertaining alternatives (or even just bad advertising for those that are more entertaining), the fact that they can charge next to twice as much for a Stereo 3D feature and that they continuously outsource more and more work to countries where the costs are just a fraction of what they would be in the US.

robcat2075 wrote:

+

When did I say "quality"?  "Vibrant" means lots is happening, lots of production going on. You need that to support an industry.
...

You talked about contemporary films being beloved classics and that today it's just astonishing. But lets not get hung up on words, regarding this thread, on how Indian Film Industry should rather create their own original content, instead of copying other's, we do share the same opinion, do we not?

robcat2075 wrote:

The idea that the 60's was a high point for US animation... Is there some knowledgeable film historian out there arguing for that?

I'd rather say the golden age centers around the 40's, with all the unbelievable Disney shorts and Chuck Jones and Tex Avery and whoever I might have missed now. In the 60's (I think) animation started to decline with the advent of television and limited animation. But I'm no historian, merely an enthusiast
Regarding your opinion on Disney and Pixar, I disagree, but that's pure personal taste, just like some people like hiphop more than rock, and vice versa, so in my opinion nothing to argue about.

MonAri wrote:

Didn't know that even some German movie projects being outsourced to India. Or you only referring to American projects going offshore, Wolfi?

Nope, it's going on in every country where the work is more expensive than in India, or other countries with a similar cheap work force. Speaking of German animation, most outsourcing I know of is going to China here.

MonAri wrote:

By the way, do you consider Rhythm & Hues is also a part of a major outsourcing network? They got 2 centers in India alone but they recently set up offices in Kaula Lampur and Vancouver within last 2-3 years, Taiwan being their 6th center coming up later this year. What they call these center as their Global Extension!

Yes. These centers are there because they don't want to pay high wages to animators in the US for movies that are eventually claimed to be US productions.

MonAri wrote:

Now a Canadian working in Vancouver can be accused of stealing an American job?

You ask an US animator that. But that's also a problem with the US-American film funding system. They obviously don't offer such massive tax breaks as Canada does. So, although the wages are the same, the labor costs considerably less in Canada as in the US.

But don't you think indian film industry should rather focus on own productions than help western companies make even more money? According to the article Dapoon posted above, the monthly starting wage in India is about as high as the daily rate of a junior in Germany. True, our living costs are considerably higher as well, but we can easily live on that, I heard that, living in a major city, 7000 rupees a month is next to nothing.

The Toy Story movies, Up, Monsters Inc, The Incredibles... those are all regarded as modern classics.

But if the current American product is really as odious as you claim then it's even more baffling that other countries should be rushing to set up industries to create the same sort of thing.

Moonman wrote:

robcat2075 wrote:

Isn't saying "India should have a vibrant, original-content animated film industry" just another way of saying "India should be more like America"?

Um...no.  No it is not.

What IS it saying then?  What IS the reason for pursuing an industry which, according to that Indian article, they regard the American success as the standard they fall short of?  There's a zillion other things humans can do besides make animated features.

wolfor wrote:

You ask an US animator that. But that's also a problem with the US-American film funding system. They obviously don't offer such massive tax breaks as Canada does. So, although the wages are the same, the labor costs considerably less in Canada as in the US.

But don't you think indian film industry should rather focus on own productions than help western companies make even more money? According to the article Dapoon posted above, the monthly starting wage in India is about as high as the daily rate of a junior in Germany. True, our living costs are considerably higher as well, but we can easily live on that, I heard that, living in a major city, 7000 rupees a month is next to nothing.

That question was actually open to all but to be specific, I wanted to know an American's perspective on that.

I am not working for any of the major money driven studios (or I will in near future) so it's bit difficult to gauge the ground-reality unless I am on the same situation. With such a low salary, it wouldn't be easy to survive in any of the metropolitan cities in India itself. I have also heard another side of the story where people would bribe to get their feet in the door and would work for free for several months. What can be worse than that?

I am seeing people arguing and ranting here and there about outsourcing thing for past 5 years or so but nothing have changed. I thought, we could have come up with some kind of reform to eliminate these shortcomings but these greedy businesses are running as usual and they are looking for more venues where they would make more profits than ever. Unequal distribution of wealth have always provided opportunities for those who are in higher strata to strengthen their power all around, for ages and it will continue to widen the gap between rich and poor for years to come. So, it's not only film or animation industry that's being affected by this evil.

wolfor wrote:

Sorry misunderstood you there

No problem.

Is the pay better where you work?

I am a self-employed and I don't know what's the current industry rate for the work I do to be honest, so I can't compare in that sense. But yes, I earn reasonably well than just ₹7K a month (to be precise 7-9 times that and it also depends on the number of projects I'm handling) working independently from my home.

I couldn't agree more! You think it would be easy for us to go out and buy, for example, a Tshirt or whatever that has been made under worthy conditions for a worthy pay and has not traveled around half the world, but this is really hard to find, sadly. Unchecked capitalism is destroying all that might otherwise be good in globalization, I think.

Your example sounds more like a Conflict Diamonds, ha!

And I haven't tasted the sour aspect of capitalism we tends to see all around much. May be ideologies of people with whom I am more involved with, have saved me from such uncalled exploitations. Being part of the FLOSS culture was the best thing that happened in my life.

MonAri wrote:

I am a self-employed and I don't know what's the current industry rate for the work I do to be honest, so I can't compare in that sense. But yes, I earn reasonably well than just ₹7K a month (to be precise 7-9 times that and it also depends on the number of projects I'm handling) working independently from my home.

Really glad to hear that!

Your example sounds more like a Conflict Diamonds, ha!

Kinda, yes Only that, opposed to diamonds, its near to impossible to get some clothing that not came out of a near to slave labor sweatshop in India or Bangladesh.

And I haven't tasted the sour aspect of capitalism we tends to see all around much. May be ideologies of people with whom I am more involved with, have saved me from such uncalled exploitations. Being part of the FLOSS culture was the best thing that happened in my life.

I've only just read into this topic, but I think this is definitely the way to go! You're a programmer, then? I have some major respect for programmers, I can't even memorize one single line of command for more than 5 minutes (although I try )

MonAri wrote:

By now, I think am drifting away from the topic of this particular thread. Open forums are crazy things. ;P

Haha, yea, but that's what discussions are like, right? I think I am only that good at English because I lived in England for two years as a kid, at an age where you learn languages pretty fast (took me about one month haha) But scripting, I've tried it, I can read MEL, but I just can't get the grammatics right... As my time as admin, I just had a sheet of paper with the most common codes I used in Linux, otherwise I would have forgotten them nearly instantly.
But now I'll stop drifting off, too.

yanni wrote:

This is a nasty cycle.. and I don't know how anyone can fix it. Maybe the chinese.

I wouldn't count on it, because they do a major job training kids not to do art. That will probably change as the global economy evolves, but for now it's similar to the rest you described.

I'm not sure "fixing" it is the right idea. It's a process, you know? Things change over time, not in one fell swoop. The key is for US to make it different, and more towards how we want it to be. That means yes we have to give up certain things for our principals, and not just follow the same path as everyone else. And that can be hard, hence why most people don't do it.