#26 03-04-2016 8:01 pm

Winterstride
Registered: 12-05-2013
Posts: 102

Re: This is no longer an animation competition!

So, this begs the question: what is the point of the 11 Second Club?

Is it just to showcase high-class animation? Then animation and not lighting or modeling or rigging should be the focus.

Is it a more general sens of what makes a good scene, like the framing, lighting, modelling, any custom rigging, and that sort of thing?

If it's the former then it's simple: standardize everything. Don't just supply the audio supply the rigs, the framing, a layout - everything. Like an assignemtn in college or something. Practical? Not in the slightest, but that's the best way.

If it's the latter and everything matters then keep everything the way it is, the whole package must be considered. Brilliant animator but not great at lighting? Learn lighting. Great at everything but suck at framing? Pick up a cinematography book. Fill in your weaknesses to make yourself stronger at everything. Practical? Not really, but a lot more doable for the competition.

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#27 03-04-2016 10:26 pm

pooby
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Registered: 10-22-2009
Posts: 8
Karmojo: 9

Re: This is no longer an animation competition!

The (specifically CGI) role of animator, is not the definition of animation.
Ultimately, we are producing a series of 2d images that have the illusion of being alive. The illusion of movement is just one aspect of that. The more control you have on the things in that sequence, the more you can influence how the audience receives what's in your head.

A tight fist, done on a poor model and rig might come across as a weak finger curl. The animator might have done his job to the best of his abilities, but the rig and model influences the quality of the performance because a tight fist holds emotional cues that his animation lacks. Again, the facial rig will enforce a palette of expression you can paint with and The final look is heavily influenced by lighting and shading. Your character casting is dictated by what the model looks like and cuts and camera angles have a huge influence on a performance.
In CGI, The person who only can only animate is not fully in control of the series of 2D images they are producing and is at the mercy of others talents to provide them with assets, so a good generalist who can control everything will always have the upper hand.

Last edited by pooby (03-04-2016 10:32 pm)

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#28 03-04-2016 10:53 pm

Winterstride
Registered: 12-05-2013
Posts: 102

Re: This is no longer an animation competition!

I definitely understand an animation purists' take on the matter, especially for newer people who don't have the raw experience needed to know what kinds of generalist skills they'll need to alter a rig or even create locators to assist in their process. They just want to showcase mechanics, and it would be pretty lousy to miss their talents just because a generalist with mediocre animation skills shot to the top because of his excellent lighting skills - I'd want to see the solid animation more.

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#29 03-04-2016 11:46 pm

thelittlepenguin84
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From: Bristol
Registered: 03-30-2010
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Re: This is no longer an animation competition!

http://blog.11secondclub.com/search/label/Lighting

always wondered whether people were aware of this? As said above, similar things have been discussed for years. I set this blog up to try to aid those who wished to learn. Hope it helps

Last edited by thelittlepenguin84 (03-04-2016 11:47 pm)

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#30 03-05-2016 1:09 am

thelittlepenguin84
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From: Bristol
Registered: 03-30-2010
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Re: This is no longer an animation competition!

I disagree with you in terms of people's interests.

I think the important thing is the desire to learn lighting above other passions. For me, animation there is so much to learn. Creature, character, game, different styles, cultures etc. it can render you vulnerable, demanding so much....

I am interested in lighting, for sure, but amongst other things in my life, I'd describe that interest as a casual one.

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#31 03-05-2016 1:18 am

taboo
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Registered: 06-30-2011
Posts: 32
Karmojo: 32

Re: This is no longer an animation competition!

I know that some of my absolute favorite animations have been rough 2d sketches, for example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HdZwbdJ_6M Some of my favorite winning entries here have been really simple entries too, like the stolen ice cream one and the attitude problem one. I really feel like, to me anyway, there's winning entries and then there's WINNING ENTRIES. Like stand out home runs lol


i like lighting, it's not something i want to do. I am perfectly fine with being a sub par lighter.

Last edited by taboo (03-05-2016 1:20 am)

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#32 03-05-2016 8:20 pm

RamParks
Registered: 05-28-2015
Posts: 24

Re: This is no longer an animation competition!

Yes! I admit I'm not the best animator, but when I put a lot of effort in the competitions and discover I received a low score I begin to think that either the voting is rigged or this competition is more based who can make their work look pretty. I've seen a lot of comments that the animation should be the key focus, yet I see very few playblast submissions receive a high score.

This competition is on par with reality competition shows in which it's more of a popularity contest and not based solely off the animation.

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#33 03-05-2016 8:37 pm

pooby
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Registered: 10-22-2009
Posts: 8
Karmojo: 9

Re: This is no longer an animation competition!

People are judging by how much they enjoy the final product, not picking apart all the elements and judging the relevant technical skills alone.

To extrapolate, Someone might be able to animate a metal armature in Stop motion with a stellar piece of acting, but I'd never expect it to win. Wow other stop motion animators, sure, because they'd appreciate how hard it is to pull off,  but not win a competition like this.

Last edited by pooby (03-05-2016 8:57 pm)

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#34 03-05-2016 8:44 pm

thelittlepenguin84
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From: Bristol
Registered: 03-30-2010
Posts: 2028
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Moderator

Re: This is no longer an animation competition!

RamParks, your animation looks ok, but I'd score it no higher than a 4. Again, as I advised on other thread, look at the archives and ask yourself what you love about those who scored in each category. Even in the toned down entries, look at the appeal of each pose.

I'd suggest possibly look into isolating each idea and pushing it. The first move of the burger could really do with a lot of work. The body and hands move with the same timing. It then pauses as one, and before the head does a simple squash for a take, with the rest of the body held. Frame by frame some disney animation, or even look into the archieves and frame through it, looking at the posing and movement.

Animation is hard and the longer you work, the more you realise you need to learn. Its a never ending cycle. I know when I first entered, I put tonnes of effort in and thought I would be in the top ten. I finished bottom ten smile On the opposite end of the scale, when I met Glen Keane I admired how humble he was. That he never thought his ideas were good enough.

Though I do not wish to put you off from entering, I'd like to see you focus on simpler exercises. The head of AnimSquad, Marlon Knowe always suggests working on small 4-5 second pieces. The idea is to focus on quality, with each pose filled with appeal.

Please note that me advising this, I see myself as having a LOT to learn. I am not perfect and I am sure you could teach me many lessons.

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#35 03-05-2016 8:45 pm

thelittlepenguin84
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From: Bristol
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Re: This is no longer an animation competition!

Pooby, yours is a beautiful entry. I do think the right person won. But the skill in your line work is awesome. Reminds me of Simon's cat smile

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#36 03-05-2016 9:07 pm

pooby
Participator
Registered: 10-22-2009
Posts: 8
Karmojo: 9

Re: This is no longer an animation competition!

Thats very kind of you.
To be honest, I didn't think mine deserved to do as well as it did. It was all over the place model wise and I didn't expect to finish it, so didn't stage it very well. It was only near the end I realised It'd be really boring unless you saw the other character, so because of this lack of planning, I felt it ended up a bit of a shambles. 
Maybe traditional animation tends to get extra credit for relative rarity? Anyway. I'm very grateful for those that voted me that high as I really wasn't expecting it.

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#37 03-07-2016 9:15 am

doffer
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From: Valence, France
Registered: 02-17-2008
Posts: 413
Karmojo: 46

Re: This is no longer an animation competition!

@RamParks: Sorry, but since you ask, I think you recieved a pretty fair score smile
It's lacking basics both in key poses, how to move in an out of them and how to hold them.

It's also lacking understanding of staging and it has unclear acting.

I mean, it's all perfectly okay we are here to learn. But to suggest/insinuate that the voting is rigged because of your score, is a bit out of line.
It's not like I don't understand you. My first entry ended in the low end as well, and I thought it was pretty good (which it wasn't) -  it is kinda heart breaking to labour over something for a month, just to see it recieve a crappy score.

It will get there though, just keep going smile


Christoffer Andersen - www.doffer.dk
Senior Animator

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#38 03-07-2016 12:22 pm

tartarstudio
From: Ireland/Sudan
Registered: 09-06-2011
Posts: 34

Re: This is no longer an animation competition!

I think people will, soon after entering a competition, realise many people vote on the final look. You are not being judged solely on your character animation skills by many voters as your directing, colouring, lighting among other skills will sure get you extra stars. I am still amazed at how the split personality piece ranked 13, maybe people did not like the concept but to me it was a top three character animation, and that's how i try to vote, on the character animation. Anyway, the sooner you realise people vote differently and bear that in mind, obviously the higher your score will become, provided you actually care that much about winning this, and have time to create a full completed and polished scene

Last edited by tartarstudio (03-07-2016 12:37 pm)

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#39 03-10-2016 9:50 am

pooby
Participator
Registered: 10-22-2009
Posts: 8
Karmojo: 9

Re: This is no longer an animation competition!

Just adding more, because I find this topic interesting.

A character's design, physique, clothing, hairstyle etc, is not strictly 'animation' related in the CGI job description sense.
However, these choices have the power to change the way the scene is read.
An obvious example for clarity, would be if you are trying to make a sexy character. It doesn't matter how well you animate the character. It will probably come off as comical if the character is physically unnattractive, because all visual cues are being read, not just movement and poses.

The following piece would still work fine with generic characters, because its animation is great, but the choices made on wardrobe, hair, etc elevate it to greatness. When you look at the guy, His clothing and hair etc informs you a great deal about his playboy character before he even begins acting, and in turn it makes what he does in the clip, more resonant.
You also know what role the lady has, through her clothing, so you begin viewing the clip with your brain prepared to read the situation.

http://www.11secondclub.com/competitions/march15/winner

All these choices that aren't 'animation' have a dramatic effect on the final piece, and its naive to think an audience can filter out the non-animation-role, yet important story telling factors that make a scene work.

Last edited by pooby (03-10-2016 9:51 am)

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#40 03-10-2016 12:45 pm

tartarstudio
From: Ireland/Sudan
Registered: 09-06-2011
Posts: 34

Re: This is no longer an animation competition!

I totally agree with Pooby. Having said that, I would understand when people, especially newcomers, assume the audience/voters on this platform are not like any other audience, in the sense that they are character animators, or involved in animation one way or another, who are actually mentally capable to differentiate.
Also, It would be fair for people to know beforehand this is not always the case, so they would be less disappointed if they score lower than they expected for reasons that are strictly non character animation related. And that's why I think Rendrman did a good thing by starting this thread, it would be even better if this thread was pinned at the top for everybody to see.

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#41 03-25-2016 5:25 pm

Morten_Enevoldsen
Upright Citizen
From: Valence, France
Registered: 05-07-2009
Posts: 310
Karmojo: 45

Re: This is no longer an animation competition!

Hi everyone just chiming in here. A couple years back I voiced a similar concern and it seems like it's a recurring issue. I'm not sure it will ever be solved and thinking about it now, perhaps the real issue is not whether or not to standardize the entries. If the panel rating the entries were professional animators I think the issue might be solved.
Because if the majority of people voting are hobbyists then they'll have more difficulty seeing through the smoke and mirrors set up. Already now it upsets the grading curve. If you don't know what to look for you won't be able to identify why something is better than something else. You can just go by your feelings and then lighting,nice modeling and textures will seem more appealing than just a playblast.
If the objective of this community is to learn and become better at animating then it would be ideal to have professional animators come and give feedback on the entries that we submit.

Just my two cents and I might be wrong.


Free weekly animation tips on my tumblr https://www.tumblr.com/blog/mortendk81

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#42 04-01-2016 6:34 pm

S.D.G
Registered: 08-10-2014
Posts: 9

Re: This is no longer an animation competition!

i learnt rendering and lighting because of 11 second club...period smile

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#43 04-03-2016 4:08 pm

Gaucelm
From: Paris, France
Registered: 03-21-2016
Posts: 32

Re: This is no longer an animation competition!

Before this, I concentrated more on my animation looking pretty and smooth... and this is how I submitted my entry...

However, as I decided to vote for the entries and write my comments/critiques for them, this is when I realized that the right balance of expression, movement, position, timing and rhythm is what makes the thing important.

Although I may be influenced by how "pretty" and "creative" an entry looks, I am hoping I am progressively focusing on the important thing. And hoping that I will learn the right lessons from that.

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#44 04-03-2016 8:37 pm

Gaucelm
From: Paris, France
Registered: 03-21-2016
Posts: 32

Re: This is no longer an animation competition!

ericraffle wrote:

In my opinion your already on the right path as you are thinking like a animator should, good luck wink

Thanks! That is good to hear. smile

I wish that, in the end, I'd have the best of both worlds, since I am still at my heart an "aesthetics" person. (I usually work as an illustrator after all)

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