#1 11-02-2015 5:11 pm

Wegg
Registered: 05-07-2015
Posts: 21
Power Voter

Wide range of quality/effort in submissions.

I think it is great that there is such a range and that people with all sorts of varying degrees of experience and talent feel free to enter but honestly. . . by the time I'm about 80 or so into voting my mind fogs over and I have to really REALLY focus to stay interested in judging.  There appear to be waves and waves of the same characters doing almost the exact same thing rather poorly and then BAM!  A gem where someone has really spent a lot of time with something super clever and unique and crafted it expertly. . .  and then back to the grind.  Has anyone thought of ways to address this?  Everyone should be judged equally to keep everything fair but could there be a cutoff maybe where if your score is marked below 2 X number of times they no longer show up for future voters?

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#2 11-02-2015 5:27 pm

RyanHagen
Upright Citizen
Registered: 06-16-2007
Posts: 1111
Karmojo: 48
Moderator

Re: Wide range of quality/effort in submissions.

I don't see that being useful in the slightest and it goes completely against what this site is about.   The point of this site is growth, not "only let good animators compete". 

Having said that.  I don't just judge on animation alone, I take a lot of things into consideration personally(not just the principles).  Creativity being one the things at the top of the list I look for.  Having said that, for this months comp, if I see lightsabers, it's an automatic 2 star deduction for me.  Voting goes quite smoothly for me, I know what i'm looking for in my voting, and I deduct stars based on things missing.


Ryan
Animator
"Frustration is the handmaiden of creativity" ~ Chuck Jones

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#3 11-02-2015 5:47 pm

TaiBo
From: Massachusetts
Registered: 10-28-2011
Posts: 1115
Productive!

Re: Wide range of quality/effort in submissions.

This keeps coming up and I can see both sides. I agree with Ryan that the spirit of the site is for growth and imposing limitations never gels with the moderators.

I think there is a real market and crazy good potential for a monthly contest giving away a small prize (video game, blu-ray, computer gear) where the top 3 places are judged by a panel of artists, or even one artist. The advertising revenue could be enough to offset the cost of buying the prize, and it could be a great alternative to the 11 Second Club. Maybe call it "animcontest.com" or something.

If that happens, I call dibs in being involved in the process! Haha.

Last edited by TaiBo (11-02-2015 5:47 pm)

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#4 11-02-2015 6:50 pm

ericraffle
From: South Africa
Registered: 02-03-2012
Posts: 1782

Re: Wide range of quality/effort in submissions.

Like Ryan said it would kind of defeat the purpose of this site if you were kicked out of the competition for poor animation, if that were the case I would have been kicked out in my first two entries when I first came to this website but look at my third entry score compared with my first two, and yes I'm not saying that I'm brilliant but you can see a improvement no matter how small it is, everyone deserves the right to be able to enter into the competition because one day they might just be the next winner, and further more instead of thinking of ways to cut down voting maybe think of ways of trying to provide or give some valubale advice on ways you can help others to improve, I think that's the important thing here.


Good Luck !! And happy animating to all

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#5 11-02-2015 7:17 pm

Wegg
Registered: 05-07-2015
Posts: 21
Power Voter

Re: Wide range of quality/effort in submissions.

In no way would I ever want anyone to be kicked out or be disqualified from voting at all.  I just think that once you have received 20 or so votes below a certain score, the trend is probably going to continue and that future voters would have a much more rewarding time of it if they didn't have to see those entries.  The low scoring entries would still get the same experience, same opportunity as everyone else. . . I'm just hoping to make the judging easier.

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#6 11-03-2015 6:43 pm

TaiBo
From: Massachusetts
Registered: 10-28-2011
Posts: 1115
Productive!

Re: Wide range of quality/effort in submissions.

What does everybody think of my idea for an alternate competition site? A simple 1st place winner with a couple of runner ups, no video hosting just embed vimeo/youtube links for the winner. You'd need to set up a wordpress site or something with a form that forwards entries of youtube links to a panel of judges via email. You'd need at least 3 credible animators to be the judges. I'd like to be a part of that but do not have the html experience or time to make it. I'd be happy to be on the panel and would provide some cash each month to buy the winner a little prize like a nice computer mouse or blu rays of great animated movies. Maybe we could do our own video critiques of the winner. Not to take anything away from 11SecondClub but it would be nice to have an alternative.

Last edited by TaiBo (11-03-2015 6:44 pm)

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#7 11-03-2015 9:35 pm

RyanHagen
Upright Citizen
Registered: 06-16-2007
Posts: 1111
Karmojo: 48
Moderator

Re: Wide range of quality/effort in submissions.

TaiBo, it's quite an undertaking and back when 10secondclub was up and running(the site, not the mailing list), there were other sites that attempted what you're suggesting and really not much came of them.  I'm not trying to discourage you, but it's quite a task managing something like that, it may initially sound relatively easy to start, but I think quickly you'll find it's quite a bit of work just managing something like that.  I say go for it, if you really feel it has potential.


Ryan
Animator
"Frustration is the handmaiden of creativity" ~ Chuck Jones

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#8 11-03-2015 11:26 pm

ericraffle
From: South Africa
Registered: 02-03-2012
Posts: 1782

Re: Wide range of quality/effort in submissions.

@wegg ,
I dissagree at what your suggesting, I think the way it is currently is the best way but I don't completelly understand what you are saying? You said that once your voting hits a certain score below that future voters wouldn't have to see your work? There is and can only be one way to vote fairly and that is to see all entries from start to end like it currently is taking place, I don't see a better way then what we are currently doing at pressant.


Good Luck !! And happy animating to all

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#9 11-04-2015 12:19 am

Wegg
Registered: 05-07-2015
Posts: 21
Power Voter

Re: Wide range of quality/effort in submissions.

A agree that the current system is the most fair BUT. . . I am finding it very difficult to help the site by judging when there are SO many entries that appear no be high-school students who just learned how to make a keyframe.  I know we all have to start somewhere but I was thinking that my idea might be a way that we can all compete at an equal fair level without judging taking so long.  Make sense?

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#10 11-04-2015 12:41 am

ericraffle
From: South Africa
Registered: 02-03-2012
Posts: 1782

Re: Wide range of quality/effort in submissions.

I hear what you are saying and agree with you I really do as there are lots of entries who are totally new to animation, I wish there was a easier way too.

The thing that dissapoints me about the very new animators is there is no planning involved , no storyline? They just animate with no structure? When I first started learning animation at college we had to draw a comic book of our animation then we could animate our idea on pc with the whole plot set out some of these new animators just seem to start animating with no reason or logic, the way I see animating is every movement every turn must have a reason for being there, you cannot animate something just for the sake of filling up a gap, it must have a purpose.


Good Luck !! And happy animating to all

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#11 11-04-2015 7:24 am

silbrandir
Registered: 10-01-2015
Posts: 8

Re: Wide range of quality/effort in submissions.

I don't know about you guys, but personally, i can tell relatively quickly how i want to vote on the lower end of the quality scale of the submissions, and i don't really even spend the time to watch it all, i just move along with a kne two or 3 star vote. Maybe thats unfair, but dems da breaks. And even 4 star entries are relatively easy to notice (those that had a good idea but needed to put more effort or needed to complete their entry). Once you get higher into so-so, respectable, good, great territory, it becomes more nuanced, and thats really shere i spend my time judging and playing through multiple times. And these entries are the one that deserve the extra time (working hard to produce good work = respect of your audiences time in my humble opinion).
I dunno, my advise is to just spend less time on those entries that kind of don't deserve the attention. That may sound kind of s***ty, but 11 seconds really isnt that much animation to do in a month, even while doing a job.
Ok, end rant ^^

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#12 11-04-2015 7:46 am

Wegg
Registered: 05-07-2015
Posts: 21
Power Voter

Re: Wide range of quality/effort in submissions.

silbranddir, That has been my current tactic.  I have only been active here for a few months so maybe I'll get faster at it and it won't bug me as much. 

ericraffle, the disappointment factor is what is bugging me the most I think.  Are these submissions part of a class assignment?  Is it one person/group submitting over and over?  I'm contemplating this at about 50 entries in and by 100 or so I'm just mad.  I just feel like my time is being wasted.  I LOVE it when I can see someone with beginner skill level really own their idea and execute it to the end.  Crazy stop motion.  Hand drawn zaniness.  Those bring a huge smile to my face as I'm watching because you just know the animator had a blast doing it. 

But ones that are so obviously only thrown in for some kind of class requirement?  Grr.

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#13 11-04-2015 8:05 am

ericraffle
From: South Africa
Registered: 02-03-2012
Posts: 1782

Re: Wide range of quality/effort in submissions.

Well its just one of those things you will have to get use to when voting is it will take time and it won't change, I personaly feel the bad animations need more attention and focus and feedback as they are the ones that don't understand things fully, the better animations don't need much attention just a good work comment or some feedback on their work but they know what they are doing so I personally feel they don't need attention as they are already producing good animations. I think a lot of the submissions are from students just starting out and their lectures telling them to join into the competition.


Good Luck !! And happy animating to all

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#14 11-04-2015 9:06 am

silbrandir
Registered: 10-01-2015
Posts: 8

Re: Wide range of quality/effort in submissions.

Thats a good sort of position to take, but realistically how much helpful feedback can you give in a comment on an online forum? I mean it's only helpful really once you get into 5 stars and up, when its just in the needs work and lower category, there's just so much that needs commenting on and improving, they really should ask their teachers for live instruction on how to progress. Or read a book. Or look at movies frame by frame. Speaking for myself, i could never really give any useful feedback for all the what seems to be technical limitations holding some entries back from being 4 or 5 stars to 6 or 7 stars (for the 3D and stop motion entries).
I don't think i agree with you tho, i think the higher rated entries are in more need of feedback than the lower rated entries. The lower rated entries need more experience and more practice, sure, but that should come with time and their own motivation. In the higher rated entries the problems to solve and how to push the posing/ performance are way more nuanced. Thats how i feel anyways, i have no idea how high i will be rated, all i know is i wish i could take back my entry because i have a list of about 20 retakes that need to be done.

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#15 11-04-2015 9:20 am

ericraffle
From: South Africa
Registered: 02-03-2012
Posts: 1782

Re: Wide range of quality/effort in submissions.

Over the years I have found a lot of different links to things that have helped me out a lot with animation so if I feel the person needs to improve on lip-sync I have tons of links from professionals that show you the best ways on how to make your character talk, the same goes for the 12 princibles of animation I have wonderful videos teaching you the 12 princibles of animation, if I feel the person needs to brush up on poses or storyboards I also have links from professionals, so at the end of the day the people entering into the competition have a goal to work on for the next month. I am no where near a professional but I can definitelly tell what needs improvement when I look at someones submission, so this is my way of helping out and at the end of the day I have provided some good links from professional animators and all they need to do is watch the videos and try and learn from it. So that's just my way of helping out, sure I could egnore the bad animations but that's not what this site was meant for its a website to help people so that's just my little way of helping out.


Good Luck !! And happy animating to all

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#16 11-04-2015 10:27 am

silbrandir
Registered: 10-01-2015
Posts: 8

Re: Wide range of quality/effort in submissions.

I guess thats fair and i applaud your rigeur sir! I by no means meant to belittle those who are trying to learn animation and just lack experience and practical instruction, and i agree that thats what this site is meant to do. If you can direct people to such links, more power to you man! At the same time, i cant help but feel that if they're motivated, they really should be seekig out and absorbing all this information themselves. i dunno, its hard to navigate. It feels weird because there is so much information available now, but its so difficult to really kind of edit the useful information and unuseful information. I understand it can be a daunting task. But I think everyone here is probably looking to get better at animation, and personally I feel i can handle giving crits to people who kind of know whats going on.
I mean at the end of the day, we are all students who are looking for opportunities to improve, and this is an awesome resource for that.

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#17 11-04-2015 10:47 am

ericraffle
From: South Africa
Registered: 02-03-2012
Posts: 1782

Re: Wide range of quality/effort in submissions.

Cool stuff, and yes we are all here to help each other out to become better animators and above all have loads of fun doing it. All the best cheers. smile


Good Luck !! And happy animating to all

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#18 11-04-2015 4:55 pm

ten_thousand_hours
Model Citizen
Registered: 08-30-2007
Posts: 121
Karmojo: 55
Power Voter

Re: Wide range of quality/effort in submissions.

I have just finished voting and I know what you mean. It is very time consuming. I try to be encouraging and generous if the idea is good, but as with everyone starting out the same mistakes are constantly made. You can often tell who is a beginner by the choice of rig. I hope that people do not get disheartened and try again after a low score. There is always a handful of stand out pieces. A friend and I voted together once and commented on ever single entry. it took hours but we hoped it helped people. However a bad score, with no feedback or guidance will not be helpful, that's why a system when they stop being entered into voting will help no one. Some months I just go on and vote for maybe 10 or 20 anims and I don't have the time to do them all.

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#19 11-04-2015 5:33 pm

Wegg
Registered: 05-07-2015
Posts: 21
Power Voter

Re: Wide range of quality/effort in submissions.

Well I'm fairly new to these parts so I'll defer to the majority opinion.  If I have time I may go in and add more comments where I think my input might help.  I think the quality of animation I see at the top is so amazing and I have learned so much just from my one attempt that it is worth the time it takes to participate and help newer animators.  Thank you for all of your comments.

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#20 11-04-2015 5:42 pm

ericraffle
From: South Africa
Registered: 02-03-2012
Posts: 1782

Re: Wide range of quality/effort in submissions.

Like most of us are if you have the time and you feel that your comment can help a new animator then great, if you don't have enough time to help out everyone then also great, its fine just do the best you can and help out at least one person and enjoy what you do because at the end of the day I think that is the most important thing is to learn and grow and have loads of fun inbetween. smile


Good Luck !! And happy animating to all

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#21 11-10-2015 10:23 pm

talldreams
Model Citizen
From: Florida
Registered: 08-05-2008
Posts: 269
Karmojo: 55

Re: Wide range of quality/effort in submissions.

Here's my take. If you really want folks to learn, then it has to be all inclusive. If you limit the submissions to people who have a higher skill level, then where do the beginners go? I know it can be tedious if you are trying to vote on 300+ submissions, but there is a lot you can learn.  I've seen 2&3 star submissions that made better decisions than ones that were ranked higher. I could see their thought process. That's where the feedback comes in. I post far more comments on poor submissions than awesome ones.


Don't playblast, instead play from the UI in real time.

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#22 11-30-2015 9:51 pm

Winterstride
Registered: 12-05-2013
Posts: 102

Re: Wide range of quality/effort in submissions.

There's no sensible way to vet new blood without adding additional layers of public voting.

If you demand that a submission first have a drawn animatic to try and dissuade lazy entries then everyone will not only be voting on final entries but early submissions on top of that. Outside of coming up with some dangerously elitist method of clearing new animators for entry to the contest there's no real option, you have to let everyone through no matter how skilled/talented/motivated they are.

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#23 12-03-2015 12:17 am

Wegg
Registered: 05-07-2015
Posts: 21
Power Voter

Re: Wide range of quality/effort in submissions.

I hate to bring this up. . . again.  But. . . wow there were a LOT of entries this month. 210? I followed the suggestion here about commenting/helping etc.  This time I commented on EVERY SINGLE entry.  I'm seriously trying to do my part.  But. . . I think it should not be this hard. 

I do not think it would be un-fair to anyone if there was some kind of filter in place with entries.  Animations that have consistently scored below a threshold after say. . . 50 people have voted would simply have their score held at that point and future voters from that point on would have a much easier time of it if they simply did not have to see the ones that didn't make it that far in the voting process. Everyone gets to enter, everyone gets to have their chance, but sometimes not everyone gets to have their animation viewed by everyone else unless they have reached a minimal threshold.  Make sense?

There are some fantastic entries this month and I am super happy to have seen them and vote on them. . .  but once again. . . there is a LOT of student/entry level stuff that is really painful to get through.  :-(

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#24 12-03-2015 3:30 am

Wegg
Registered: 05-07-2015
Posts: 21
Power Voter

Re: Wide range of quality/effort in submissions.

Winterstride wrote:

There's no sensible way to vet new blood without adding additional layers of public voting.

If you demand that a submission first have a drawn animatic to try and dissuade lazy entries then everyone will not only be voting on final entries but early submissions on top of that. Outside of coming up with some dangerously elitist method of clearing new animators for entry to the contest there's no real option, you have to let everyone through no matter how skilled/talented/motivated they are.

No no no.  I don't want to vet the new blood at all.  I think you misunderstood.  Everyone gets to enter their animation.  No matter what they did last time, what skill level they are at etc.  It should always be that way.  BUT!  AFTER they have entered and that specific entry gets X number of scores below a threshold then voting stops on that specific entry on that specific month.

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#25 12-03-2015 6:48 am

Easy619
Registered: 12-15-2012
Posts: 672
Productive!

Re: Wide range of quality/effort in submissions.

I vote on the character animation over everything. Even if there's an epic story behind an entry or nicely rendered.


"Talent you have naturally. Skill is only developed by hours and hours and hours of beating on your craft." - Will Smith

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