So dapoon since you are working with Vaibhav, i hope you must have got your answers....if you are talented, you'll make a place for yourselves..have patience and keep working..  ...and oh..btw, i just saw return......its awesome and a lot of people are waiting for it.....all the very best
cheers
sandy

i agree all the animators in india facing the same problem dapoon . so many of my friend left animation and doing something else because they have to survive .

Hey, about your thoughts, I can confirm this partly. As soon as you have some years of experience with you, you will get better payed jobs, but you can also more and more afford to turn down studios that aren't offering very much.
The other thing is, you'll never get payed good if you stay at the company you started in.
And studios who really take advantage of the tight job marked and pay less and less to the artists will have that reputation of not paying well very fast, so no experienced professional will want to work for this company anymore. In turn, this studio cannot really compete with others who pay reasonably well, because they only hire inexperienced people, juniors, interns and people with low talent, and also any experienced professional working for them will not feel very inclined to perform at his or her maximum.
In other words, studios that do this only harm themselves, and the market is usually selfregulating.

That's how I see this. Could be wrong, of course

Interesting topic, but from my own experiences I don't know any studio that would take a "fresher" over a veteran of the business.  I worked at Film Roman on The Simpsons for 5 years and they hardly ever hired fresh graduates.  In contrast I myself was a fresh graduate when they hired me but it's because of good timing and I had two animation teachers in college that worked there so they helped me get in.  But I was working with people who had been working on the show 10-15 years, some even since the show started.  The studio never hired new people unless they had to.  When we were making the Simsons movie of course they needed to hire a lot of people and I can tell you they weren't fresh grads.  A lot of the peeps they hired for the movie were veterans of the biz, in fact I don't think they hired a single fresh grad unless it was for a PA or internship position.  After the movie was done all the movie animators scrambled to get hired full time on the show.  Some of them did actually and ey were all old vets. 

A good friend of mine got a job at Disney as a computer guy and he told me they also don't hire fresh grads very much either.  Of course in feature the fresh grads are all from CalArts and they always start as assistant animators and work their way up.  Just to support what I'm saying, out of all the people I graduated with from college back in 2005 I'm th only person to get a job as an animator, a lot of them are working in studios but as animatic timers or PA's.  The point is in Burbank at least, studios like their vets because they're reliable, loyal, get the job done on time, and so on.  With fresh grads they have to be trained, don't have deadline experience, and haven't yet developed confidence so they're slow and unsure.  In tv at least shows need to get done very fast so studios don't have time to train new grads unless of course they need the extra help.  I can't speak for the video game industry or 3d studios, I'm just speaking from my own experience.

In regards to sending work overseas that's killing American animator jobs more than fresh grads.  Simpsons is the only tv studio that still makes layouts and key animation before being sent to Korea for inbetweens, clean up, and color.  Everywhere else makes storyboards in the states and all animation is sent overseas.  As many people already stated animation is a business and studios are run by executives who are only out to make money, so cutting corners to make the profit higher is pretty standard.  In the states the animators are freelancers for commercials and feature people, everyone else is trying to be a storyboard artist or character designer.  I can't tell you how many character design hopefullls there are out there and studios only need one, two at most for a single show. 

The states though isnt the only country that sends work overseas.  I currently work at a studio here in the Philippines, TopDraw, and we make shows for countries all over the world.  I've done work for shows from Spain, Germany, and now France.  The pay is very low compared to pay from the states but I'm animating, and to me that's worth more than money.  It's interesting too seeing how studios around the world  operate.  For example back home animators follow the storyboard to a tee but Spanish studios use storyboards just as reference.  Anyway I'm getting off topic, what were we talking about?  Oh yeah, hands down cucumbers taste better than pickles, but thats just me.

robcat2075 wrote:

I agree that you can't live on "passion"

You CAN live on passion. Most people absolutely don't WANT to live on passion. There are plenty of people who travel the world, staying with whoever will have them, helping where ever they can because that's where their passion is. They have no jobs, yet they live. A very different life, but they live.

I'm not saying that's for everyone or animators should be those people, but I'm not a fan of using the word "can't" when we really mean "don't want to."

Passion becomes stupidity when you've neglected your basic responsibilities trying to pursue it. You can't feed passion to your family, and you can't live under it. And I am sure we all "want to".  What is it exactly that someone who "can't" live on the nothing that they make following their passion for 10 - 14 hours/ day "doesn't want" to do? I must be misunderstanding your statement, and I apologize for that. But it sounds like you're insinuating that passion is what is feeding, clothing and housing these very passionate people, when to me it seems like they are relying on the kindness of strangers and living somewhat dangerously. When these people have an infected tooth in the back of their mouth, that is quickly spreading and causing unspeakable discomfort, what do they do? Does the passion do a root canal and place a crown?

  I don't think that wanting to grow the industry and attain standards of fair pay equates to any kind of cynicism. I know a lot of artists are offended by the conversation of wages, since art should be something we do without regard for money ( according to what "art school" pounds into your head). But it is an industry. A very old one.  It wasn't all passion that painted the Sistine chapel. It was probably equal amounts money and passion that got it done (With a good bit of insanity thrown in there).
    It doesn't sound romantic, or glamorous or even very attractive to have this point of view. But I am convinced that this is a conversation that every artist, no matter how passionate, needs to address at some point in their career. And we are ALL passionate. That isn't something we need help with. What we need help with is getting paid.

If it were a cure for a dread epidemic or a diplomatic solution to avert a pending war, i can imagine people working overtime and for free to get it done.

But animation is a commercial art, like billboards and fast food and McMansions.  It is done to make as much money as possible and there's no reason the people who do the labor on it should be subsidizing that venture with free work or under paid work.

The people who own these studios would never consider doing what they do for free. Notice that.

Johnnykaka wrote:

You have completely glossed over my point. I would love to know how you're going to reinvent the animation industry without funding. Will you answer that question? Do you think the rules will not apply to you? Why is that?

Where did I say there would be no funding? Where did I say I'd NEVER use a dollar? As for the "rules," there are many I don't agree with, such as "All animation is commercial art done to make as much money as possible." Why do I think that rule doesn't apply to me? Because I'M in charge of me, and I don't accept such a notion.

The issue I see is that some folks are looking at a 6 month internship without pay as equaling "This person will never see a dime for their work ever their entire lives, and when that happens I'll be out of a job because I want a paycheck." That's a pretty far leap, don't you think? 6 months to FOREVER? Why does it have to be so extreme?

I can tell you from experience that you spend the first six months (at LEAST) training a new person, and NO ONE wants that person to leave afterward to have to start all over. Training is a misery, and you're thrilled to get out of it once the person is fully trained. It isn't like the studio is going to just sit and cycle through students every 6 months, forever getting free work done.

Johnnykaka wrote:

Many MANY people have gone off and made their own "sandbox". And some of those "sandboxes" have become major studios. Studios that exploit educated, overenthusiastic people by not paying them to do high end work.

Then it seems that's not the right sandbox for you, is it? The studios that are exploiting people? However what you must see is it is up to the PERSON to decide if they are being exploited or not, not anyone else. If someone gives me $20 to mow their lawn, and you think I deserve $50, it's not up to you if I was taken advantage of, it's up to ME. Likewise if the older lady across the street lives on her deceased husband's pension and can't afford $20 for gardening and I cut it for free, that's ALSO up to me.

Johnnykaka wrote:

JKR, you seem like an endlessly positive and probably very nice person. That can be both a blessing and a curse. Right now you are so filled with idealism and love for the craft that I hate trying to knock what you are saying.

If you hate trying to knock it, why do you? If I were to go out and live in my crazy idealistic way and start my own studio and bring in nothing but people who wanted great health insurance, super flexible hours, a wonderful work environment and the sense that what they were creating was making a REAL difference- BUT with very little actual pay, how would that make your life suddenly terrible? WHY knock me down? (You don't have to answer me, but I hope you'll answer yourself.)

Johnnykaka wrote:

I am guessing that you are quite young, so I am sorry if I'm wrong about that.

One month till 30. However I cling to the conviction of my youth, because I don't like what cynicism and "the real world" has done to the people I see out there. I don't want to be like that. I don't WANT to believe things are impossible. It's a battle I go through every day, not being beaten down to "reality," and it's difficult. But I think it's worth that fight.

Johnnykaka wrote:

There isn't anything wrong with wanting to break through the barriers of everything and change the world. But it is irresponsible to decide to break through on your own, without considering the others that are walking the planet with you.

How am I not considering others that are walking the planet? The vast majority of any money we'll make at my studio will be put towards helping as many people as possible. People who NEED help. HELP, not just a nicer car. There will be NO CEOs at my studio making hundreds of millions of dollars while people starve to death in the streets.

Johnnykaka wrote:

People's lives are being destroyed. Families are going without, young kids are being exploited and treated without dignity.

Firstly, if families are going without then I'm sorry to sound harsh but those people need to stop being entertainers. Do it on the side if you want, but freaking support your family first. Otherwise let someone else support them, because that's selfish to let them struggle while you ENTERTAIN people. Secondly, dignity, like exploitation, is something determined by the person who is IN that position, and no one else. If you are happy making minimum wage at Target, then no one should be allowed to tell you you're being exploited or treated without dignity. That is YOUR decision to make. It might not be the job for me, but if you're happy doing it, kudos.

Johnnykaka wrote:

People need to eat, dude. This job isn't easy. No one is asking to get rich, though some might like that.

I disagree. MANY people are asking to get rich. The CEOs of these giant companies are asking- and getting- rich every day. And then we say that it's the unpaid INTERNS who work for 6 months that are killing the industry? Are we serious? It's literally like a bully shoving you into the mud and then saying "You know who's fault that was? The kid who was in front of me at lunch and took the last cookie. Blame him."

Johnnykaka wrote:

And deciding to work for no pay because you want a foot in is incredibly short sighted and stupid.

And yet every single industry (perhaps minus maybe janitorial services?) have unpaid internships. Every. Single. One. It gets people in the door, and has for a long time. Short sighted and stupid? Is it really beneficial to anyone to call human beings who are trying their hardest to follow their dreams short sighted and stupid? All that does is help our own egos, looking down on others.

Johnnykaka wrote:

I am getting upset that you seem to be thumbing your nose at everyone that aims to make a standard living as an artist.  And a lot of what you are presenting as an argument is not really based in anything realistic. It's just a lot of steam.

First, I never thumbed my nose at anyone, and if I did I completely apologize because I didn't INTEND to. That aside, what's WRONG with a lot of steam? Do you think the first man to climb Mt. Everest based his decision on anything realistic? He didn't say "Well, the guy before me did it, so..." Steam is what makes things better, and pushes things forward. It's when we hide behind what's always worked and refuse to budge that nothing progresses.

I mean, really, what is the problem with shooting for the moon?

 

Johnnykaka wrote:

Animation is a collaborative effort on all fronts. Why can't we collaborate on standards of fair pay, and the future of the profession? What exactly is wrong with that?

Nothing is wrong with that, but you have to understand that some peoples' goals are different than others. Some people think "fair pay" is getting their work seen by a thousand people. Some people think it's "fair pay" for CEOs to make $40,000,000 a year, plus bonuses. You can't shoehorn people into accepting ONLY your definition of "fair pay" because that's when you're not collaborating anymore. That's when you're saying "This is how it should be, period."

Every year I help host a Ukrainian Egg Show at my church. Last show, last month, we made $1300 on the event (a record for us and the show since starting it five years ago). People came up to me in the weeks after and asked "So how did you do at the Egg Show?" My response was "Absolutely great, we had a lot of people come in, learn how to make the eggs, and they seemed to have a great time." My response had nothing to DO with finances, because my version of "fair pay" was getting to sit with a girl who couldn't have been more than 16 and was a single parent and talking to her as a human being. If we made $10 that day, I would have still be satisfied.

My definition may be different than yours of what is fair pay. I don't think it's right for EITHER of us to force the other one to give up what we think. I will of course show you the benefits of my definition, and hope you join me in that thought. I love to hear your definition as well, and I imagine you'd love for me to join your school of thought. At the end of the day, though, it's not right for either of us to stomp on the others' way of thinking about what matters in this life.
   

Johnnykaka wrote:

And you can certainly pursue your dream without telling the rest of us to go without and enjoy working for nothing.

Where did I ever say that? I mean, really, where? I'm saying you SHOULD go after what you want. You should go find what it is your looking for. The problem I'm seeing is you're saying I (or not even really I, but these young animators who are willing to do internships for free) should NOT. I'm not the one telling anyone what to do, you are. You're saying what's right and wrong here. I'm saying "go for your dreams and make this world a better place."

I've got my head up in the clouds. The view is fantastic, the air is super sweet, and so far I've not seen a lot of reasons to come down. I invite you to join me. Sometimes we fail up here, but it still seems pretty great. If I'm somehow hurting you by being up here, I absolutely want to know about it so I can prevent that. But I don't see it. I don't see where I'm hurting you. I'm open to seeing it, though, if you want to show me.

JKR, it sounds like you are saying you should do it for the passion and experience only. Saying we are here to entertain people. But the truth is, we're here to make money. If you are only doing it because you love it, and you want to entertain people, THEN you should be doing it on the side. Telling someone to do it on the side because you arent making enough money is just dumb. Animation is not an industry that should require a second job. There's plenty of money in it. But come on, if you didn't care about the money at all, you wouldn't be working anywhere. You would be at home doing your own thing.  I don't care what anyone says. As soon as you turn a passion into a career, money is a part of it. End of story. And for something that takes this much talent, and this much training, no one should have to work for free, or even minimum wage. If you spend 20 or 30k on schooling, just to work for free, then something is seriously wrong with the industry. The industry is NOT about entertaining people. Not in the slightest. The industry is about money. Movies don't get green lit unless the higher up people think it will make money. No company is going to make a movie for the sheer enjoyment of their viewers. It just doesn't happen. Individuals may be working somewhere and say ya, I want to make this as entertaining as possible, but movies are created for money. Nothing more.

I love animating, and if I wasn't in this industry, I would still do it on the side for free. That's where the passion comes in. But, when I choose for it to be my career, and my source of money to pay my bills, and fill my stomach, then ya. Money matters. It's a sad fact to life, but it is 100% true.

No matter the industry though, I don't think its right for any company to pay their employees so little if they are making plenty of money. Especially if they have lots of training and what not. Taking advantage of people just because you can is pure and utter dog poop. But, that's why all those companies that make the best companies to work for list are the ones that keep their employees happy by paying them PROPERLY.

Last edited by StefanLipsius (04-16-2012 8:51 pm)

'The industry is NOT about entertaining people. Not in the slightest. The industry is about money'

I disagree with both of you. But thats showbizness

I think its about both. I also think this conversation just seems to be looping around in cycles, as in your own way, you both already know this.

Lastly, I think you should be both shake hands and get back to making the good stuff. Enjoy!

Last edited by thelittlepenguin84 (04-16-2012 9:55 pm)

Oh, I agree JKR. I think it should be about entertainment, as well. Honestly, if I was making enough to move out on my own, and pay all my bills, maybe I wouldnt be complaining. I don't care if I make millions. I know I wont. But I want to make enough to live comfortably (which really, for me, isnt a whole hell of a lot). So, if I were getting the industry standard, I would be happy.

Personally, I don't do it for the entertainment of others though. I animate cause I love to animate. I love making things come alive. I find it challenging, and I do it purely for me. If it lets me pay my bills at the same time, even better. I don't need to work on the biggest and greatest stuff out there. I just want to animate. I do it for the love of it. But, I chose it as my career, so unfortunately, I have to worry about my bills as well.

Last edited by StefanLipsius (04-16-2012 10:24 pm)

JKR wrote:

I don't want to. WHY do I need to? Because others have? What if I want something else?

Then you're going to have to do something else.  I've been seeing conversations like this 'round every sort of art based forum that exists for the past decade, be it music, animation, or comic books, and always it's the same basic gripe: kids these days working for less devalues my work harumph!  As far as I can tell, it's just an inability to come to terms with a very simple - and so very harsh - truth:  you're just not worth it anymore.

I had to accept a lot of harsh truths growing up.  I lived in California, the best place to live if you want to grow up to be an animator, but it wasn't the right part of California, so I didn't have access to any resources that would allow me to nurture that love.  I tried anyway.  Most everyone told me I wasn't going to make it and they weren't being cruel or ignorant.  It was clear I was placing a bet of long odds and in the end I lost, not because of some outside influence, but because that's what a long odd is.  That's life.  It was just a harsh truth I had to accept and I did.  This is no different.

You're harsh truth is coming to terms with the fact that art - for all it can accomplish - is superfluous.  Me having the ability to create the illusion movement through a series of images I made will not protect me from harm, will not feed me.  It can't be used as a power source or a tool.  It serves no purpose other than to entertain.  Art is like gold, pretty and defined by how rare it is, but of very little practical use.

That rarity is what gave vets the paychecks they've grown so accustomed to, but the internet has severely diluted that value.  I can understand the frustration with that, don't get me wrong, but I can't really sympathize when I've never had a year where I made more than $25,000 and have been able to live quite comfortably and I'm even less so when I see others - new talent in this case - get blamed for what I see as simply the natural order of things.